davidmalmolevine
(superposter)
4/28/01 12:33 PM
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MY BC Poll: 11% For BCMP! Vote!
[Post#: 122069
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http://www2.mybc.com/news/election/
I think we could probably get the rest of the NDP's 13 percent if we didn't talk so much about two-tiered heath care.
"I have struggled against tyranny. I didn't do that in order to substitute another." Desmond Tutu
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JohnDillinger
(member)
4/28/01 02:01 PM
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Re: MY BC Poll: 11% For BCMP! Vote!
[Post#: 122099
/ re: 122069
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On line polls aren't worth diddle-squat. I certainly wouldn't base policy on one.
JD
Legalize Freedom!
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BC_Budman
(newbie)
4/28/01 02:10 PM
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Re: MY BC Poll: 11% For BCMP! Vote!
[Post#: 122101
/ re: 122069
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Right on David!
I believe we do have a "social contract." Public health care and public schools are a major part of that contract in that we agree as a country that every person will have access to affordable health care and access to the same education as everyone else.
To support two-tiered health care and vouchers in school, IMHO, would undermine both.
"Life is a tragedy for those who feel
and a comedy for those who think."
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JohnDillinger
(member)
4/28/01 02:52 PM
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Re: MY BC Poll: 11% For BCMP! Vote!
[Post#: 122110
/ re: 122101
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Okay. If you pay for it, and I can opt out and buy my own. IOW, we have a social contract for the government to bugger off and let me make my own decisions
JD
Legalize Freedom!
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BC_Budman
(newbie)
4/28/01 03:14 PM
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Re: MY BC Poll: 11% For BCMP! Vote!
[Post#: 122117
/ re: 122110
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I DO pay for it (that's the reason we pay taxes), and you can opt out any time you want. Or you can go back to the states and pay through the nose or get refused treatment because you don't have the right insurance.
I really can't see any resolution to this dichotomy. One seems to negate the other. In other words, if one gets what they want, the other doesn't.
"Life is a tragedy for those who feel
and a comedy for those who think."
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JohnDillinger
(member)
4/28/01 03:27 PM
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Re: MY BC Poll: 11% For BCMP! Vote!
[Post#: 122121
/ re: 122117
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"I DO pay for it (that's the reason we pay taxes), and you can opt out any time you want."
Out of paying taxes?
"Or you can go back to the states and pay through the nose or get refused treatment"
Like in BC when they put you on a waiting list and die in the mean time? Our current system is heading down fast. My wife is a true believer in the Canadian system (and a GP, btw). I told her ten years ago that we'd soon see the negative results of socialized medicine. It only took five. I give the current system less than another five years before it self-destructs or is replaced with something more reasonable (that allows for some level of private choice).
"because you don't have the right insurance."
Guess I would need to shop for better insurance then.
"I really can't see any resolution to this dichotomy. One seems to negate the other. In other words, if one gets what they want, the other doesn't."
How's that?
JD
Legalize Freedom!
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BC_Budman
(newbie)
4/28/01 03:45 PM
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Re: MY BC Poll: 11% For BCMP! Vote!
[Post#: 122125
/ re: 122121
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>Out of paying taxes?
No, but since you are a libertarian I know you don't believe in taxes and would privatize everything.
>Like in BC when they put you on a waiting list and die in >>the mean time? Our current
>system is heading down fast. My wife is a true believer in >the Canadian system (and a GP,
>btw). I told her ten years ago that we'd soon see the
>negative results of socialized medicine.
>It only took five. I give the current system less than
>another five years before it
>self-destructs or is replaced with something more
>reasonable (that allows for some level of
>private choice).
Your observation doesn't address the fact that 10 years ago starting with the withdrawal of transfer payment by the government, too much money was pulled out of health and education. This signaled the negative result and was not "self-destructive" but imposed from without.
>Guess I would need to shop for better insurance then.
Hopefully you won't be taking a pre-existing condition to your new carrier who might then refuse to insure you because it would cost them too much, or charge you a fee too high to pay.
>How's that?
It is obvious that two mutually exclusive conditions can't exist at the same time unless they are contained separately.
"Life is a tragedy for those who feel
and a comedy for those who think."
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JohnDillinger
(member)
4/28/01 06:31 PM
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Re: MY BC Poll: 11% For BCMP! Vote!
[Post#: 122161
/ re: 122125
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">Out of paying taxes?
No, but since you are a libertarian I know you don't believe in taxes and would privatize everything."
I don't believe in taxes, true, but privatizing everything isn't required.
"Your observation doesn't address the fact that 10 years ago starting with the withdrawal of transfer payment by the government, too much money was pulled out of health and education. This signaled the negative result and was not "self-destructive" but imposed from without."
And so? You're health care is at the whim of government, and that's the real issue. Moreover, they could fund the hell out of it, and it still won't work.
>Guess I would need to shop for better insurance then.
"Hopefully you won't be taking a pre-existing condition to your new carrier who might then refuse to insure you because it would cost them too much, or charge you a fee too high to pay."
Guess I'd have to go to free clinic or charity hospital then.
>How's that?
"It is obvious that two mutually exclusive conditions can't exist at the same time unless they are contained separately."
And how does it apply here?
JD
Legalize Freedom!
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BC_Budman
(newbie)
4/28/01 09:29 PM
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Re: MY BC Poll: 11% For BCMP! Vote!
[Post#: 122183
/ re: 122161
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Okay, how do you maintain the social contract?
I infer there would be public institutions, but how do you administer and fund them?
"Life is a tragedy for those who feel
and a comedy for those who think."
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MrOms
(enthusiast)
4/29/01 05:45 AM
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Re: MY BC Poll: 11% For BCMP! Vote!
[Post#: 122231
/ re: 122161
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So JD, you think that a privatized system of HMO's who are at the whim of the stock market is a better solution? We have been falling behind because of dumb issues like bilingualism and marijuana prohibition. Both of these efforts cost us heavily. Believe it ir not, but Canada spends less per capita on healthcare than the US does. But we spend our time trying to make sure that everybody has exactly what they want so they don't whine all the time. I respect your opinion John, but libertarianism is an ideal that didn't work in Greece and it certainly won't work in an overpopulated world today. Pure libertarianism is a nice but unrealistic thought. Socialism is the same way, on the other end of the scale.
The problem is labelling a group of people as this or that and expecting every member to follow. Thus, libertarianism as an ideal does kind of sound like it is in favor of privatizing and "marketizing" everything.
It is too late for people to be truly free, we can only strive for mutual tolerance and respect of our differences. Star Trek is still a long way away!
We have to adopt new ideas for structuring the way we interact, and revolutionize the way people view one another. Unfortunately, globalization will turn us into a big american piss pot anyway. We will be drilling for oil in the Arctic because we are too lazy to find new fuel solutions, and we will be mulching the dead into soylent green!
Otherwise I agree with you both!!!!
Just trying to lighten the conversation a little boys and girls!
Peace and Love,
If you don't like my fire,
Then don't come around,
'cause I'm gonna burn one down!
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MrOms
(enthusiast)
4/29/01 05:52 AM
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Re: MY BC Poll: 11% For BCMP! Vote!
[Post#: 122232
/ re: 122183
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Oh Well, at least people with guns will vote for the BCMJP!
Who needs bleeding heart liberals anyway!
If you don't like my fire,
Then don't come around,
'cause I'm gonna burn one down!
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Herb
(journeyman)
4/29/01 09:29 AM
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Re: MY BC Poll: 11% For BCMP! Vote!
[Post#: 122261
/ re: 122101
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"Emery is also a strong advocate of privatized health care. "We are in favour of anything that offers more choices. We should make accommodation possible so that people with extra income can buy extra services..."
- from LIBERTARIANS AND RIGHT-WINGERS EMBRACE NEW MARIJUANA PARTY
URL: http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v01/n660/a04.html
IMHO > Peole would love it if medicare paid for medical marijuana. Prohibition makes it so expensive.
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BC_Budman
(newbie)
4/29/01 10:19 AM
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Re: MY BC Poll: 11% For BCMP! Vote!
[Post#: 122271
/ re: 122231
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I'm with you Oms.
I put the libertarian utopia right next to the socialist utopia a long time ago.
Our politics have been polarized for so long it's become almost impossible to take a new, more inclusive path.
We seem to have a great deal of dependence on the infallibity of our systems, which in the end we end up serving instead of the system serving us (a la: Voltaire's Bastards)
Certainly we do have too much government control and a lack of accountability to the taxpayer. I don't mind paying taxes as long as they are going to what was promised. And I do like the idea of citizen initiatives as a workable democratic tool.
Perhaps we need more politicians to run as Independents., Certainly the labels don't seem to mean much anymore as we have a Liberal Party that is top heavy with the old Socreds and an NDP party that seem more liberal in many things.
World politics (which seem primarily corporate) are influencing our own provincial politics also. On one hand we have the US crying about their inability to compete with our lumber, notwithstanding that this challenge has failed three times already in the courts, and on the other we have US produce being dumped here cheaper than we can grow our own.
The Summit of the Americas seems to indicate that democratic rights are being trampled under the guise of bringing American style democracy to the rest of the hemisphere.
Sorry for the ramble, but there seems to be an attitude that there is a simple and quick solution for everything if only we'd all get on board. It just ain't so.
While I don't have a shrink-wrapped solution to many of these problems, I have faith that we are coming to a point where we must try something different.
The BCMP platform on health and education are the only parts I have difficulty with.
"Life is a tragedy for those who feel
and a comedy for those who think."
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JohnDillinger
(member)
4/29/01 03:24 PM
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Re: MY BC Poll: 11% For BCMP! Vote!
[Post#: 122327
/ re: 122231
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"So JD, you think that a privatized system of HMO's who are at the whim of the stock market is a better solution?"
Yes. But HMOs aren't the only solution.
"Believe it ir not, but Canada spends less per capita on healthcare than the US does."
Been that way for years, but spending less per capita doesn't mean it better serves the needs of its users.
"I respect your opinion John, but libertarianism is an ideal that didn't work in Greece and it certainly won't work in an overpopulated world today. "
Greece is a model for democracy, not liberty (or libertarianism).
"Pure libertarianism is a nice but unrealistic thought. Socialism is the same way, on the other end of the scale"
Some people, same goals. Why do you need coercion to produce results? That's all libertarianism is, the "non-aggression axiom".
"The problem is labelling a group of people as this or that and expecting every member to follow. Thus, libertarianism as an ideal does kind of sound like it is in favor of privatizing and "marketizing" everything."
Well, since you ask: there is quite a variety of people calling themselves libertarian (many who aren't, btw) who have completely different ideas on how to achieve this or that result. Rather than privatizing government services, I think we should begin by opening those services up to fair competition. If the government DOES provide the service better than the private options, it will be the one to survive and prosper. To insure true competition and remove aggressive/coercive taxation, the government could ("must" the libertarian would say) charge directly for the services it offers. This could be done in the form of service packages (Defense package=national defense, access to the courts, public defenders, national police, etc). If you opt out, you would either pay upfront to get any particular service or receive the service from a private for profit or non-profit provider. There are also more grandualist approaches that could get us from here to there while addressing all the other social and economic issues.
"It is too late for people to be truly free, we can only strive for mutual tolerance and respect of our differences. Star Trek is still a long way away!"
For the record, I don't consider Star Trek to be any kind of libertarian model. If I had to chose a science fiction model, it would be one from Robert A. Heinlein.
"We have to adopt new ideas for structuring the way we interact, and revolutionize the way people view one another. Unfortunately, globalization will turn us into a big american piss pot anyway. We will be drilling for oil in the Arctic because we are too lazy to find new fuel solutions, and we will be mulching the dead into soylent green!
We'll have to agree to disagree.
"Just trying to lighten the conversation a little boys and girls!"
What fun is that?
JD
Legalize Freedom!
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FlashGordon
(old hand)
4/29/01 04:39 PM
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Re: MY BC Poll: 11% For BCMP! Vote!
[Post#: 122346
/ re: 122069
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http://www2.mybc.com/news/election/
John Gordon
http://www.bcmarijuanaparty.ca/c_john_gordon.htm Vancouver- Kensington .
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sage_b
(stranger
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4/29/01 08:11 PM
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Re: MY BC Poll: 11% For BCMP! Vote!
[Post#: 122409
/ re: 122069
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My niece goes to a RC private school, and her teacher assigned the class to do a report on the election. But get this: they can only cover the Liberals and the NDP.
So the problem in this election is religion because the religious right are behind marginalization of the BCMP.
What's the connection between Bill Gates and hash?
check out my webpage.
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