qibbish
(journeyman)
4/5/01 07:01 PM
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florescent grow experience
[Post#: 113183
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For years I'd always turned my nose up when I heard stories of people growing herb solely under florescents. It stuck me as such a waste to put all that energy into a system I didn't think could yeild anything worthwhile with just florescent lighting, and often felt growers that went that way were throwing away potential (and money) to raise a wasted crop..
Then I came upon some pictures of a florescent garden at http://dabombaybee420.tripod.com/techniques.html
and nearly fell of my seat. Ok, he obviously used seeds with good genetics, and the buds don't look amazingly good.. but better than I would have figured.
My question is this: in order to get a decent crop using this method, what would be a recommended wattage for these kinds of lights.. Secondly (and most importantly) where can I buy florescent lights good for growing ? Does anybody know of a good rigging method to get the lights raisable?
I'm willing to trade off some potential potency for the decrease in visibility (to the electric company and IR imaging devices)... particulary for a personal crop.
now if I could only find a way to take care of oder...
(e)
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sb5
(enthusiast)
4/5/01 07:11 PM
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Re: florescent grow experience
[Post#: 113191
/ re: 113183
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give em about 50w a sq/ft of flor and train the plants to grow the main stalk horizontally, with the side shoots growing straight up ( ===-T---T----T--T--T---T~ ). ive grown some seriously potent dope under strickly floro setups... with a little effort you can yield a "decent sized" crop...
sb5
dont fuck with my fucking pipe
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PurpleDurban
(journeyman)
4/5/01 08:01 PM
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Re: florescent grow experience
[Post#: 113210
/ re: 113191
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I myself have never grown under strictly flouros, but I know that it is possible to yeild perfectly chronic herbs by this method. Just flower early (or train like sb5 suggested). Big drawback-you invariably get fluffier product, hence lower yeild. You also have to continually adjust the lights.I have sampled some top grade indoor from such setups.
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sb5
(enthusiast)
4/5/01 08:35 PM
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Re: florescent grow experience
[Post#: 113220
/ re: 113210
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>> Big drawback-you invariably get fluffier product, hence lower yeild
not exactly true. if you keep the light (in my own experience tested) literaly touching the top of the plants youll keep the nodes centimeters apart... in the end youll have tighter bigger buds (versus a lot of little popcorn buds).
also with floros, keep a light bank on the SIDE(s) of the plants to compensate for the large amounts of weak floro light that is lost in the upper canopy.... that barely or never reaches lowest levels (result, small if any buds down below... side lighting increases these to nice nugs!).
ive only grown STRICKLY with floros a couple times. the rest of the time ive used the floros for veg and cloning only.
>> You also have to continually adjust the lights.
as with any type of lighting you will have to
sb5
dont fuck with my fucking pipe
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kloset_king
(superposter)
4/5/01 08:46 PM
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Re: florescent grow experience
[Post#: 113223
/ re: 113220
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If you want to learn the best methods for growing with fluro's, look into ScroG growing. This is the most rewarding method of growth under this type of light. Hope this helps...K_K
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PurpleDurban
(journeyman)
4/5/01 09:20 PM
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Re: florescent grow experience
[Post#: 113230
/ re: 113223
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I am honestly not saying that flourescents suck-but they surely have their drawbacks-as with any light system. Side lighting is a great way to illuminate your lower growth-but it seems like adding it would just create that much more to adjust and deal with if you wanted to get close to your plants (though they do have those circular flourescents). "Fluffy buds" was a comparison to flowers grown under 50+ watts/sq.ft. of HPS-which can be rock hard-can flourescents do that? I have puffed some pretty kryppie kolas from flourescent rigs, but compared to alot of hydro grown under HPS it was fluffy. This in turn would seem to invariably lower yeild (compared to HPS), because of the difference in relative intensity of the light (flouro vs HPS) and the resulting relative density of the flowers. Am I just too stoned to reason properly...or does this make sense?
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PurpleDurban
(journeyman)
4/5/01 11:44 PM
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Re: florescent grow experience
[Post#: 113278
/ re: 113230
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I have found that if you combine cool whites (blue light) with warm whites (red light), that is the best flouro setup. Opinions differ on how many of each to use, but I think that using half of each is okay-but many recommend one cool white for every two warm white bulb. These tubes and the fixtures they go into are available at most hardware stores, Wal-Marts, or Home Depots...I just bought two of each at HD (they come in packs of 2). Cool whites were like $3.99 a pair, and the warm whites about $6.00 a pair. Shoplight fixtures are about $10.00. Don't be tempted by pricey "gro-bulbs"-they have a better spectrum, but it is ultimately cheaper to just combine the 2 types of regular tubes. Most Shoplight fixtures come with s-hooks and 2 short chains. If you get some extender chains to lengthen those short chains, you can hook those to plant hooks that you screw into the ceiling.Then you can just loop the next link in the chain onto the hook as your babies grow.
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CannabisUrungus
(journeyman)
4/6/01 09:23 AM
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Re: florescent grow experience
[Post#: 113378
/ re: 113278
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PurpleDurban, the name "cool white" is sort of a misnomer-- they actually emit most of their light in the yellow part of the spectrum. The human eye automatically adjusts to make them appear white. They work, but since plants utilize mostly the red and blue parts of the spectrum, I think 100% warm whites may be the best solution. I would mix in daylight tubes as well (which actually do have more "blue" light), but they usually aren't very bright.
Anyway, fluorescents do work. Before HID lights were available, fluorescents were the ONLY way to grow.
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PurpleDurban
(member)
4/6/01 02:40 PM
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Re: florescent grow experience
[Post#: 113480
/ re: 113378
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I must politely disagree, my brother. Cool whites emit mostly blue light-that is why they are called "cool"-blue is a cool color. Hence, "warm" whites emit more red-spectrum light (red is a warm color-so is yellow). If cool whites emit yellow light then they are worthless for this kind of horticulture-which makes it mysterious indeed why Mel Frank and many others reccomend them highly for vegetative growth/foliage production. As for the human eye adjusting the light to appear white, I notice a distinct blue hue coming from closets w/cool white setups-likewise a reddish/orange one coming from closets with mostly warm whites. I know a bevy of growers who swear by using cool whites exclusively to root clones/veg youngsters-and they have some beautiful plants. If cool whites emmited yellow light their plants would probably not survive (or would barely survive-and would thus be discredited and not employed at all).Daylight flourescents have good blue, too, and have been used with success-but I find cool whites are more available (at least in my area). In addition to warm white, you can use soft white or "merchandiser" white for red sources. Peace.
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luckman
(journeyman)
4/6/01 05:04 PM
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Re: florescent grow experience
[Post#: 113550
/ re: 113378
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Mr CannibisUrungus....didnt you just like, start here recently? I dont meant to insult, but do you realize you're not only challenging this person here but also Ed Rosenthal and all the work that dude did, I mean come on its proven cool whites emit enough blue light for the veg stage. They knew it 30 years ago, they know it today and the plants certainly respond. Do what that SanFranGrower cat does and do an experiment with the right equipment and come back and tell me I'm full of shit. But unless you're a rocket engineer that did the russian icbm detectors during the cold war, I doubt you know more about light that any of us.
As always, my opinion.
LuckMan
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Overdrive
(superposter)
4/6/01 07:13 PM
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Re: florescent grow experience
[Post#: 113576
/ re: 113550
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Flours are so underated.They are a very important peice of equipment in any gro-op.They can be used from sprout through to harvest and IMO are the best for cloning.Cool whites do emit blue spectrum and warms more to the red.For veg a combo of 2 cools and 1 warm is best and for flower 2 warms and 1 cool is best.Used with the proper grow techniques they can produce some fine bud.I will and always have had flours in my grows..IMHO..PEACE
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CannabisUrungus
(journeyman)
4/6/01 08:37 PM
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Re: florescent grow experience
[Post#: 113599
/ re: 113576
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I did a little bit of research so I would have some evidence to back up what I said, and came up with this article:
http://www.aquabotanic.com/lightcompare.htm
It is very informative, so I suggest everyone interested in lighting read it. The article was written with aquarium plants in mind, but the information still applies quite well to growing weed.
My theory about warm whites being the best was incorrect. They do emit slightly more red light (which is good), but at too much of an expense of blue. I was incorrect because I assumed that plants used red and blue light equally; they actually use the blue end of the spectrum most, and for this reason the daylight bulbs are the most efficient (but only slightly).
I still maintain that cool whites emit most of their light in the yellow part of the spectrum, so there is still a lot of wasted energy. The spectragraphs on the page will show this (if you can decipher them).
In conclusion: Daylight tubes are the most efficient, followed by cool white, then warm white. Given that cool whites are usually the cheapest, they are probably the best choice. All this talk about mixing warm white with cool whites is probably nonsense, since warm whites are least efficient with respect to the photosynthesis action curve.
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PurpleDurban
(member)
4/7/01 00:13 AM
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Re: florescent grow experience
[Post#: 113641
/ re: 113599
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Did the photosynthesis action curve compensate for plants that flower? Flowering plants require light in the red part of the spectrum (and quite a bit of it) in order to reach their maximum flowering potential. This would suggest that mixing cool whites with warm whites is not only not nonsense, but necessary for the best results. This is why HPS is better for flowering than MH. Whether or not it benefits plants to have red flouros in veg, however, is a matter of opinion. I have raised outdoor starts under flouro systems a number of times. The plants seem to do about the same when the lights are 0 cool white as when they are f.7 cool white and 3.3 warm white.
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PurpleDurban
(member)
4/7/01 00:19 AM
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Re: florescent grow experience
[Post#: 113642
/ re: 113641
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Why do numbers always come out weird? I was saying that the plants seem to do about the same in vegetative stage whether you use all cool whites or a third warm whites/two thirds cool white.
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luckman
(journeyman)
4/7/01 04:26 AM
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Re: florescent grow experience
[Post#: 113656
/ re: 113599
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I dont understand Mr Urungus. Where are you getting this information about photosynthesis action curves and their affect from cool and warm whites? If this is true prove it to me. You were a newbie in all this 3 weeks ago, whats going on? You sound like a phd in Light all the sudden. :-)
LuckMan
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luckman
(member)
4/7/01 06:16 AM
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Re: florescent grow experience
[Post#: 113663
/ re: 113656
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Forgive me, I see where you get your info. Duuhhh.
LuckMan
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CannabisUrungus
(journeyman)
4/7/01 09:50 AM
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Re: florescent grow experience
[Post#: 113701
/ re: 113663
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If anyone is still confused, just look at the "PUR Total uE/s" value on the chart.
"PUR: obtained by weighing the photon spectrum with an "average" photosynthesis action curve. The Total column lists the sum of all photons in the range 400-700nm weighted by the action spectrum. Since there is no clue in these figures about the relative amount of red and blue photons, I also computed PUR in the 400-500 nm range only (blue) and 600-700 nm range only (red)."
Here are the total PUR Ue/s for the common tube types:
Cool white: 20.5
Warm white: 18.1
Daylight Deluxe: 23.2
Cool White Deluxe: 22.4
Warm White Deluxe: 21.4
I found it strange that the deluxe tubes rated better, since they have a lower lumen output. Many grow guides even say not to use deluxe tubes. I think the reason for this is that the photooptic curve (what you can see with your eye, and what the lumen is based on) and the photosynthesis action curve are very different. For example, a normal human eye can see green better than any other color, while plants use very little green light for photosynthesis (that's why plants are green-- they reflect green light instead of absorbing it). In other words, lumens are not a very good guage of a lights worth.
By the way, where did everyone get the idea that warm lights are best for flowering? I haven't seen any evidence for or against this claim. Was there some sort of study conducted, or is this just conjecture?
PS: I'm not claiming to be any sort of expert. I'm just reporting back what I've read. Anyone can do a little bit of research...
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luckman
(member)
4/7/01 01:25 PM
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Re: florescent grow experience
[Post#: 113738
/ re: 113701
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I get into details as much as anybody, hell I write software for a living for chrissake. But why you want to try to disapprove a long held, accepted and APPLIED theory with these numbers is beyond me. Just a month ago you were a newbie in all this like me trying to discover why your leaves were yellow. I hope to dog you have more than one source for all this, and I dont mean links off the main page you found. In the end I need demonstrable proof of what you say, not a bunch of numbers and a url. A web page can say anything it wants. Raise a few sets of plants to a few inches tall with different lights and tell us what happens. That would be a compelling argument.
Once again, and I'll quit saying this eventually, I'm challenging you but not insulting you.
LuckMan
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PurpleDurban
(member)
4/7/01 01:33 PM
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Re: florescent grow experience
[Post#: 113740
/ re: 113701
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The application of warm, soft and merchandiser white flourescents has been a tried and true method of flowering plants for years. Just ask Frank, Rosenthal et.al. Though these bulbs do contribute a good measure of red or near red light, HPS does better (even though it emits a pink-orange light). Even better than that is a combination of HPS/MH(more natural spectrum-but mostly blue band) But if you are using only flouros, then it is all about these three types of tubes-(combined with a bit of cool white or daylight). I don't know if you can use only red spectrum flourescents for flowering though-but I think it is impractical.The main reason warm whites, et.al. work well in all phases (and especially combined with some blue light) is that sunlight is so intense that it can saturate plants in the red and blue bands, even though much of its energy is concentrated in the middle bands (green and yellow)-which are of course way less important to plants. Since what indoor horticulturalists are striving for is to emulate the sun, the most efficient way to do so in terms of cost, effort and efficiency, is to saturate as much as possible at both ends of the spectrum (red and blue). Though in vegetative growth the need for warm whites is debatable, it is not debatable as to whether they are required for flowering. As for them being the "best", I guess that is a matter of opinion. In terms of flourescents it is very possible that they are...but one thing is for sure and that is that they work, and work well.
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nightrunner
(stranger
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4/7/01 04:30 PM
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Re: florescent grow experience
[Post#: 113778
/ re: 113183
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I don't crunch numbers, and I don't know a damn thing about photowhatever curves.What I do know is COOL WHITE=BLUE and WARM WHITE=RED.I have been useing these for 25 years.The best mix thatI've found is to alternate the two in a 1 to 1 ratio.The trick is getting them as close together as possible.I usualy cut the wings on those discount store reflectors leaving about an inch on each side depending on manufacture.I then pop rivet them together.I can get up to 60 watts per foot this way.When this is done the light reflectors will start to form a circle.Don't worry about that, they are only sheet metal and will easily bend when you want them to.I recamend a rivet for each foot of reflector length to give them support and add sturdiness to the light system when it's done.After they are all together (6 sets are normal).I Don,t cut the two reflector "wings" on the outside of the light bank.I drill a hole in each end of these to hold a section of threaded rod to hold the light bank in a very gentle arch.The ends of the rod also gives me a place to fasten chain for raising the system.Some discount flouro lights don't hold the bulbs very well and are a pain in the ass to work with.BUYER BEWARE!!! Yes;I also use M.H.and H.P.S.but fluoresents realy"shine"for cloneing and veg also does a damn good job for SOG when flowering is induced early with clones.I do hope some of this babble helps somebody.
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PurpleDurban
(member)
4/7/01 06:19 PM
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Re: florescent grow experience
[Post#: 113792
/ re: 113778
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My point precisely, bro. You can throw as many numbers and scientific measurments into the mix as possible...but science does not prove, nor does it seek to prove. Proof only comes from experience with these lights. Experience tells us cool white and warm white are fine.
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RBud
(member)
4/7/01 08:27 PM
Attachment
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Re: florescent grow experience
[Post#: 113819
/ re: 113183
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This is what i have grown under fluoro's. I used 400 watts of GE's plant and Aquarium lights it seemed to work well for me. I had nine like this.
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budsniffer
(journeyman)
4/7/01 08:31 PM
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Re: florescent grow experience
[Post#: 113820
/ re: 113183
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have grown some nice bud with flos.
Just an old shitfaced fuckers point of veiw
Good luck
The Budsniffer
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budsniffer
(journeyman)
4/7/01 08:31 PM
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Re: florescent grow experience
[Post#: 113821
/ re: 113183
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have grown some nice bud with flos.
Just an old shitfaced fuckers point of veiw
Good luck
The Budsniffer
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RBud
(member)
4/7/01 08:40 PM
Attachment
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Re: florescent grow experience
[Post#: 113823
/ re: 113819
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Here is another pic! I will use the fluoro's again, go ahead and give it a try, just remember to keep the lights close and all around them.
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luckman
(member)
4/7/01 09:22 PM
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Re: florescent grow experience
[Post#: 113832
/ re: 113823
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Thats pretty hardcore. Very nice looking plant. You topped it, obviously. I didnt do that, only bent it over. When I grow some seriously from the emery catalog, I'll try topping it. What do you do with the top you cut off, replant it?
LuckMan
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PurpleDurban
(member)
4/7/01 10:57 PM
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Re: florescent grow experience
[Post#: 113861
/ re: 113832
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Yeah, instead of just pinching the growing tip to top the plants, you can make a clone out of the top several nodes of the main shoot.
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